Comments on: Forehand Throws and Foot Turns: Follow-Up on the IO Foot http://www.ultimatethoughts.com/2009/12/forehand-throws-and-foot-turns-follow-up-on-the-io-foot.html Ultimate Ramblings Tue, 07 Feb 2012 23:17:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: LeslieW http://www.ultimatethoughts.com/2009/12/forehand-throws-and-foot-turns-follow-up-on-the-io-foot.html/comment-page-1#comment-597 LeslieW Thu, 10 Dec 2009 07:47:54 +0000 http://www.ultimatethoughts.com/2009/12/forehand-throws-and-foot-turns-follow-up-on-the-io-foot.html#comment-597 I've been thinking about this too recently, and just completed S-phase (level 3) Z-health certification last weekend in Tempe AZ, where we practiced "side flow" and various transitional athletic movements.<br /><br />In I-phase, Dr. Cobb suggests athletes train in all directions of the "compass" lunge, N / NW / E etc. Furthermore, it's worth training the foot in internal and in external rotation (R foot external rotation being what you call IO Foot).<br /><br />I talked to a Z-health Master Trainer about this at S-phase a little bit and she suggested that (for the side step at least) the external foot rotation does make it a little easier to get low. Think about it, if you lunge with internal foot rotation you have a little less stability, with slight external rotation a little more (neutral being facing forward).<br /><br />I do think it's worth clarifying though what the original lunge position is, in Z we might call that a lateral lunge or a posterior 45 lunge or an anterior 45 lunge depending on the positioning, and it also gets a bit subtle when you start talking about how the hips orient wrt pelvis (i.e. is the pelvis square?).<br /><br />Whatever the case, it's worth training ankle mobility and strength, and playing around with different positions in practice to see how it feels. I've been thinking about this too recently, and just completed S-phase (level 3) Z-health certification last weekend in Tempe AZ, where we practiced "side flow" and various transitional athletic movements.

In I-phase, Dr. Cobb suggests athletes train in all directions of the "compass" lunge, N / NW / E etc. Furthermore, it's worth training the foot in internal and in external rotation (R foot external rotation being what you call IO Foot).

I talked to a Z-health Master Trainer about this at S-phase a little bit and she suggested that (for the side step at least) the external foot rotation does make it a little easier to get low. Think about it, if you lunge with internal foot rotation you have a little less stability, with slight external rotation a little more (neutral being facing forward).

I do think it's worth clarifying though what the original lunge position is, in Z we might call that a lateral lunge or a posterior 45 lunge or an anterior 45 lunge depending on the positioning, and it also gets a bit subtle when you start talking about how the hips orient wrt pelvis (i.e. is the pelvis square?).

Whatever the case, it's worth training ankle mobility and strength, and playing around with different positions in practice to see how it feels.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.ultimatethoughts.com/2009/12/forehand-throws-and-foot-turns-follow-up-on-the-io-foot.html/comment-page-1#comment-596 Anonymous Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:05:00 +0000 http://www.ultimatethoughts.com/2009/12/forehand-throws-and-foot-turns-follow-up-on-the-io-foot.html#comment-596 I totally get the "past-perpendicular" phrase. Here at Kansas, I try and have my heel as forward as possible on my step out. This way it naturally brings your knee back a few degrees which no matter if you throw inside or outside the knee there will be less chance that the knee will be an obstruction for the throwing arm. <br /><br />I've been doing this technique for a couple of years now without any injuries related to it. That's probably due to the amount of biking I do around town. I totally get the "past-perpendicular" phrase. Here at Kansas, I try and have my heel as forward as possible on my step out. This way it naturally brings your knee back a few degrees which no matter if you throw inside or outside the knee there will be less chance that the knee will be an obstruction for the throwing arm.

I've been doing this technique for a couple of years now without any injuries related to it. That's probably due to the amount of biking I do around town.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.ultimatethoughts.com/2009/12/forehand-throws-and-foot-turns-follow-up-on-the-io-foot.html/comment-page-1#comment-595 Anonymous Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:14:21 +0000 http://www.ultimatethoughts.com/2009/12/forehand-throws-and-foot-turns-follow-up-on-the-io-foot.html#comment-595 if it hasn't been said, the main thing about this foot position (which I interpret as point your foot in the direction you are stepping -- i.e. out -- instead of forward) is that it opens up your hips, allowing you to drive with your hips on the throw. i can't imagine having your foot closed and trying to throw with and oomph. if it hasn't been said, the main thing about this foot position (which I interpret as point your foot in the direction you are stepping — i.e. out — instead of forward) is that it opens up your hips, allowing you to drive with your hips on the throw. i can't imagine having your foot closed and trying to throw with and oomph.

]]> By: BCR http://www.ultimatethoughts.com/2009/12/forehand-throws-and-foot-turns-follow-up-on-the-io-foot.html/comment-page-1#comment-594 BCR Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:58:47 +0000 http://www.ultimatethoughts.com/2009/12/forehand-throws-and-foot-turns-follow-up-on-the-io-foot.html#comment-594 The shots you've posted have the foot aligned with the leg - all good. I think that's optimal regardless of what direction you step out in.<br /><br />The inside/outside the knee distinction seems fairly arbitrary though. The comment before this shows an example of what i'm saying. This guy supposedly throws "outside the knee" but if you look at the next image in that stream, you'll see his arm ends up "inside" the knee. In reality it would seem he is throwing around/over the knee?<br /><br />The point is that when you step out, your shoulder position should be such that you can throw around your knee anyway. If your knee is in the way, you're not out as far as you should be.<br /><br />I'm still a bit worried about the way you describe the foot position because I see things like this as an accident waiting to happen:<br /><br />http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeremykanter/2969864601/in/set-72157608349496691/ The shots you've posted have the foot aligned with the leg – all good. I think that's optimal regardless of what direction you step out in.

The inside/outside the knee distinction seems fairly arbitrary though. The comment before this shows an example of what i'm saying. This guy supposedly throws "outside the knee" but if you look at the next image in that stream, you'll see his arm ends up "inside" the knee. In reality it would seem he is throwing around/over the knee?

The point is that when you step out, your shoulder position should be such that you can throw around your knee anyway. If your knee is in the way, you're not out as far as you should be.

I'm still a bit worried about the way you describe the foot position because I see things like this as an accident waiting to happen:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeremykanter/2969864601/in/set-72157608349496691/

]]> By: Jeremy Kanter http://www.ultimatethoughts.com/2009/12/forehand-throws-and-foot-turns-follow-up-on-the-io-foot.html/comment-page-1#comment-593 Jeremy Kanter Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:21:20 +0000 http://www.ultimatethoughts.com/2009/12/forehand-throws-and-foot-turns-follow-up-on-the-io-foot.html#comment-593 One thrower who uses a different stepping style is Tad Wissel. He throws outside the knee and has some of the best breaks in the Mid-Atlantic. I think a lot of that he accomplishes with his quickness, and he definitely uses his forehand throwing style to this advantage. By getting in a balanced stance low and wide, he draws a lot of marks over, only to pivot and beat them with a backhand break (which he much prefers to the IO flick break). Pictures of his throwing stance here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeremykanter/2969863855/in/set-72157608349496691/ One thrower who uses a different stepping style is Tad Wissel. He throws outside the knee and has some of the best breaks in the Mid-Atlantic. I think a lot of that he accomplishes with his quickness, and he definitely uses his forehand throwing style to this advantage. By getting in a balanced stance low and wide, he draws a lot of marks over, only to pivot and beat them with a backhand break (which he much prefers to the IO flick break). Pictures of his throwing stance here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeremykanter/2969863855/in/set-72157608349496691/

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